only to reinforce to them that they knew this. was not. a controversial leader whose success is beyond question. time. wanted tragedy starts april fifth t w. o n a very well welcome indeed to quadriga and the focus this week is on the mass killing in christ church new zealand and its aftermath two mosques were targeted at least fifty people were killed and many more wounded the man accused of the attack an australian citizen appears to be a fanatical white supremacist prime minister just center of turn has tried to offer comfort to the people of new zealand and they shouldn't in shock and in mourning
meanwhile questions are being asked about possible links between the perpetrator and extreme right wing groups and ideas and what role the social media play in spreading his propaganda so our question on quadriga this week is after christ church who is to blame for the hate and to discuss that question i'm joined here in the studio by meltzer laming author and senior editor of the berlin vase dating dan savage beagle mother says christ church might be just under twenty thousand kilometers away from birth laden it is however a new era that many people think also with us is matthew carney chief europe correspondent of politico who argues that christ church is a potent for blinder of how dangerous it is to ignore the growing islamophobia to see that europe and other corners of the world in recent years. and a very warm welcome to georgia dollars and miles tweakings new zealand born under news reports are. with t.w.
a mile sais that it's been encouraging to see messages of unity and hope being prioritized in new zealand since the terrorist attack but there are still too many divisive voices getting too much oxygen. for miles and would like to begin with us a new zealander a country in profound mourning and in profound schol. how have you experienced the past several days. well i think like many other kiwis i was just woke up to the news and extremely shocked. and this is sent shock waves through new zealand new zealand hasn't ever really seen gun violence like this on this scale in modern history. and the country is still currently and i think and a grieving process and still processing the hurt and the tragedy from this incident without wanting to move events along too quickly people need time to reflect but is
there a sense that there is now a new phase beginning a phase of profound reflection about what has happened. but i think that level of. introspection would take it take time to develop and i think new zealand is really will reflect on this quite intensely and i think it will come it will take time but we are seeing some positive steps and we're saying like i said. in the previously. it is positive to see these messages of unity coming out from prime minister just out and for example and that's been the overriding kind of message coming from shows at the moment and also the the sentiment with the gun reform possibly we've just said that it will go ahead sometime in april we will see some meaningful reform a new zealand and semi automatic weapons will be will be outlawed and i think just what would you talked about unity that at the beginning of the show we had a statement from you talking about divisive voices getting too much oxygen what did
you mean that. well we've also had parliamentarians for example yesterday talking about a lot of the political rhetoric surrounding immigration and new zealand. and there's been a lot of it and recent years maybe i mean we're talking on a new zealand scale it's not. nothing's really comparative to overseas but. it's still there and it's still a problem and it's. something that we will have to be working on yeah ok matthew kind of this was a particularly horrific attack there's no doubt about that and one german security expert described it as a quantum leap in right wing terrorism what is the new dimension. well the news then mention is that it was filmed live and streamed you know over facebook and whatever and that copies were sent around and that it serves bred like
this this wild fire and that you know it almost had the feel of a video game one of these video games out of the perspective of the shooter. and you know i mean i think it does this shows. you know actually looks of this media watch and you know so i did not why i have no desire to watch it and didn't watch it although i know that you know some some media decided to to post excerpts of of the video which you know is a journalistic decision i think you know can can go either either way on that but i think it does show you know also the influence of the media world on these extremists and they know what they have to do in order to you know have the most impact with these attacks because previous attacks have been haven't been filmed to this degree months and you say that christ church is nearer to us than we might think what you've been exactly i mean by that that. first of all what was the
target the target but to most people praying muslims pray so we have the worst. terrorist attack on muslim community in the western world since so i think this is one of the dimensions that was it is spoken about but not to the extent that i would like it is wish because anti these sentiments we're dealing in all over europe and in germany as well with that so without saying that there's always a a clear link between islam criticism and terrorist attack there is not there is no automatic thing that leads from one to another but but but that words have consequences lead to emotions and that hate leads to terrorist attacks it is not miles. yeah i think the link between divisive sentiments and and the
actions that the terrorist attack that took place last week definitely have a connection and it's. it's staggering the you know people try and maybe i think personally try and separate those two it's different and this is this is an attack that we've never seen on our shores we don't have usually gun violence in the on this level and i mean we're talking about a country that has for the last ten years insistently had. an annual murder rate of about thirty five people you know and this is this is this is reflects the gravity when we had you know a year's worth of murders in one day and something which is absolutely staggering and. it was a twenty eight year old australian man accused of the christchurch killings apparently prepared to the attacks in meticulous detail even wrote a seventy four page so called money fastow saying the attacks have been planned for
at least two years in many ways it's a similar plan since what we witnessed what will the witnessed in norway back in twenty eleven. the australian shooter wore a head mounted camera and live streamed video of the crime on facebook the company says the original live video was viewed four thousand times before it was removed. the suspect has been identified as a twenty eight year old australian who moved to new zealand two years ago a lengthy document posted online just before the shooting and attributed to him is filled with anti immigrant mino fascist and nationalist rhetoric. the suspect is said to have been inspired by hunters behring breivik the norwegian far right terrorist who killed a total of seventy seven people in two separate attacks in july two thousand and eleven eight people were killed when breivik set off a car bomb in central oslo hours later he shot and killed sixty nine people at a youth summer camp. were these simply lone
wolf attacks. matthew is it correct to describe him as a lone wolf attacker was there an ideological since it is being described. well there might be an ideological hinterland it's all very confused i think this is part of the problem here is that it's very difficult to identify you know a specific ideology i mean it's you know these people tend to be psychopaths to begin with you know they're not cystic and so forth and they each find an ideology to kind of suit you know their particular sociopathy so you know this person might have done something like this anyway or of might have you know turned to violence for it for other reasons but i don't think that it's a coincidence that the political discussion that we have in the west now which is very focused on migration and by west i would also include australia and new
zealand as being part of this kind of cultural area and just the focus of the media and. you know not just the news media but also films and television series and so forth on this question of islam and muslims and the way that they're portrayed that this has you know led us to this point where it's very easy to demonize these people and this is clearly what's what's happening not just not just in new zealand yes i would say that it's also it's very hard to describe the real content of the audio ology because it's kind of syncretistic takes things from all over the world saying that white supremacy goes together with the fear of immigrants with the. we hate of islam with all these things so i think there is even a connection between the unabomber ted kaczynski understeering breivik in no way
leading up to christ's church so all these i think would combines is is is the notion that the perpetrators are claiming to act defensively we have to defend ourselves against immigrants against people with bad intent and so on we had just defending ourselves so this is this is this is i think all these things haven't come. and doesn't remind you of the n.s.u. cell here in germany the terrorist cell that went on a killing spree killing ten mainly immigrant people here in germany something militaristic abounded something about about the ruthlessness of his of being on a mission of going down a list of eradicating of wiping out the enemy yes yes the n.s.a. to the the right wing terrorist cell in germany the targets were many turks. so it was an anti turk so it was a clear racist thing i'm not quite sure if it was so much and motivated i don't see
that they have come through all the fuzz to have a clear picture of about how anti muslim the feeling was i think it was basically enter a new year you have written quite a lot about the astonishing parallels between jihadist islamist terror and far extremist right wing terror. yes jihadist terror i think we study jihadists or to a certain extend we know how radicalized people on how fast sometimes the process of a ticklish nation goes the aim of the islamist terrorist is to eliminate muslims living in europe living in the western world and trying to integrate from the rest of the population they're living in because they want to to steer up hatred in the in the population in the european countries against immigrants and that's how they try to to ally and they these these muslims living in. right wing what we have studied and
we haven't discussed enough about is the tradition and the history of anti islam feelings and we i think we create he has to do that. matthew the. christian she came to europe and picked up a lot of his ideological sources here in europe and also with the area movement around you remove can tell us about that well this is what i mean it seems to be a bit of a potpourri he had you know names etched into the stock of his rifle from the balkans as well referring to things that happened there there is a growing i would say identity tarion movement as it's called in europe now. there is in places like austria it's very strong but but not only and it's probably also something that we don't really know how big it is they tend to get a lot of media attention because they've got very good at marketing themselves it's
not the traditional sort of skinhead type with black boots marching around as it as it was in the eighty's and ninety's now you have a very kind of preppy looking you know young men seeming to make you know but at first glance might sound like reasonable arguments reasonable political arguments. so you know this is changing but it is also affecting the mainstream political debate and i think this is this is the danger when you see parties like the alternative for germany party and others making similar noises in this direction about immigrants about islam you have you know factors like best selling books that have appeared in germany won by a former member of the board of the of the buddhist bank named t. los there is in germany does away with itself which is really kind of a long manifesto against islam at the end of the day and that was at the top of the
bestseller charge so you know these are all things that are that are show that you know this issue about islam the role that it plays in german society the role muslims play here and how they you know interact with the rest of german and european society is something that really deserves a lot more attention miles what was your view how how intense how how intense is the presence of islamophobia in germany in the streets of germany in the mainstream in germany in germany. living in a. sort of comment on because. but it is a very multicultural society it's very few. it is always there is a level of racism and things like that there but i don't really feel. that as on the phobia in the in the streets of berlin i mean maybe and i was just picking up on the role of the mainstream role it was a f.t.e.
the alternative for jim to him in germany did this strongest policy opposition policy in the german poland and now you know in some regions i mean of course there is more support for a day and there is more and he sent places like eminence and so on it's definitely there is a swelling of support for those parties but i think this is a i think is a global phenomenon that it's not just something that germany has to come to term deals with it's. i mean the comparisons between the attacker know when the attack on new zealand for example these these are ideas that are being globalized and adapted to each individual to societies around the won't you know these. and there are people involved in actively spreading these ideas and a lot of people would say you know that the attacker new zealand for example he was australian but that doesn't mean to say that that ideology is not in new zealand and that's known. not there. on
a different social media day the talker in christchurch clearly sets out to kill as many people as he could in quick time but also it's a proper gate his idea is to propagate his propaganda and he clearly go it's quite a lot of help as we've already seen from social media how disturbing is that for you i find it extremely shocking that these ideas that would be being like. being adapted to societies and cultures where you zealand is a multicultural society and we're very i think most new zealand as we say we're very proud of that but there are people actively trying to minute to change that there are. there was a case in six months ago where we had a couple of i was an extremely controversial issue in new zealand we had a couple of bloggers that came to new zealand and they had been travelling giving speeches throughout australia and they came to new zealand and they were they from they were want to name them and give too much information on them because i don't
want to i think that is the part of the problem is that the more oxygen they get the more they the popularity of their power and. but they attempted to come to new zealand to do speeches and. a lot of their events were were cancelled once once the new operators in new zealand really realised who they were and what they were doing so that was that was a huge controversy in new zealand because there was a lot of freedom of speech advocates who claimed that that was you know censorship and so on but i think there would be. possibly people thinking analyzing it a bit closer they are now after the attack i think i think it one has to understand the attractiveness of the narcotic moment in the internet so now you have the clear perspective of an eager shooter of the perpetrator of these terrorist acts and this is something that people are on one side are shocked about and
because it's horrific and terrible others might be oh death that looks like the eagle shooter that looks like the gaming community in and that's what i'm playing is so the similarity between these things give you the give you might give one the impression that that it reflects some kind of an arche and things are possible doing in the internet that are not the real world so and i them i'm afraid that normal people are finding that attractive and tradition of it was the media of course who were the gatekeeper for better or for worse and those are the it is a good thing in many ways that that has changed but now so many things like murders and suicides mass rapes god forbid all sorts of events are being streamed on you know online and what was the way forward it really reduces the possibilities of the media to be the role of the gatekeeper because you have media into the media that can show things that we won't even consider shockey so
so things are going to the public and i mean the internet is somehow globalizing sentiments. and hate the emotions we sold for example the caricature of the danish little danish village mall that karaka two is intended to be seen by a small dangers readers of the newspapers but causing reactions thousands of miles away in the arab muslim world's fears reactions so you have the money first of breivik causing a lunatic in australia to read it and act accordingly so this is the globalization of emotions and i think we can't stop the process prime minister. has done what she can and we've seen this to comfort people in new zealand she's also talked about the challenges that lie ahead let's listen to what she had to say to ensure the safety of our muslim communities and others the two hundred new
cities that live and you zealand we have to be live to the fact that there are those who do not hear our values of openness of diversity of compassion and that's something we're going to have to confront is a nation. so what do you do about people who don't share values like over openness and diversity and difference. that's that that's that's the challenge the new zealand faces now that's the challenge the whole world faces well i think it's i think it's definitely part of the power the problem with is i think a lot of the mainstream traditional media don't really understand how to deal with a lot of the new the new media types and media personalities they're peddling these ideas and i think these people that had. a peddling a lot of this hate speech and this divisive rhetoric they're very savvy and very smart and they know how to you know to get their message across and i think we. i
think there is a responsibility of the media which i think in new zealand has not done a good job of because it has been traditionally seen as something international something external something that was not on shows that they went up to speed i think a lot on a lot of these means and methods with which these these messages of anti multiculturalism are being spirit i think the only way to deal with these people who if you can put it say the young i would suggest is to try i'm recovered these people bring them back win them back over with with ideas of exactly i just into doing what she's doing she's stressing messages of unity and hope which is. a unifier it's. to the minutes people start pointing the finger and laying blame it creates even more division and more. turmoil in society i think she's on the right track nothing of the way forward amid so much turmoil well i
think there needs to be more discussion about it in all of all of these countries and i think the point in his even is well what happened you know as miles just said what led up to this attack what was the discussion then i think part of the problem now in looking at it and it's a little bit out of the headlines in europe already now is that it dern has become this kind of global star and all the focus is on her and you know how sympathetic she is as a figure and how she's doing all the right things which is obviously necessary but unfortunately i think diverted attention from some of these underlying issues how did we get to this point and why is this happening in a place like new zealand which as you say has been kind of you know this is literally this is this island you know kind of walled off from these developments seemingly and it's even it's even happening there and i don't feel that the warning that is coming out of new zealand now that this attack illustrates is being taken seriously enough in other countries amounts to how much politics used to play it
was so very long ago when people thought about it's the economy stupid politics used to be about jobs and about incomes now politics in recent years seems to be more and more about who belongs and who doesn't belong. but has identity and people are willing to fight for this now you've given this a lot of thought i know yes i think yes that's that's the new battle we're facing in the old fashioned enough to still believe in the poll of all humans i think you have to tell people what the value of if human rights is what the value of the freedom of religion is what the well you of arguing with with each other is and so i think it has to be done again and again even though it sometimes seems to be very stressful or not not efficient enough and fighting these these kind of people but but but i don't see that we have any of the tools. question this week on quadriga or off to christ church who is to blame for the hate miles who is to blame
for the hate. i think these things would be very easy to. protect as i point the finger right now but i think these things don't happen in a vacuum i think there's a number of factors involved here and i think. voices of division are a few i definitely playing a role in who's playing. saying yes. people who are talking about another religion trends that exclude. people from being a member of the civilization. well i actually think that we're all to blame because we have just ignored you know these problems for too long and or pretended like they don't exist wise words from back to college thanks very much for joining us here on the show what do you get today if you've enjoyed the show about his.
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